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Why Wait Webs Website

luminousnerd.com's picture

This is a layout I have spent the last couple of days on. It is for my own website, the target audience is mostly small businesses. The main purpose of the site is to get them to contact me. The most useful tool for this will probably be the portfolio, and the design of the site itself.

I would love to get some of your ideas for how I could make it better! Thanks in advance!

Just so you know, neither the green text in the main content, nor the list on the right, are links. The green/bold coloration is just for emphasis and headers. I'm a firm believer that in-text links should be underlined, but I want to keep the site very small and very simple, not complex or confusing in the least, and thus intend to have no links besides the 5 at the top.

mara06's picture

It is a mistake to color

It is a mistake to color things that look like they should be links but aren't. That's going to frustrate visitors to your site, who will think it's not working right.

Underlining links is really an outdated idea. Why would you want to cling to it, especially if you're in the business of creating Web sites? (You can have underlines appear when people mouseover, but having them as part of what they first see? I wouldn't.)

I have a problem with your content (text). Why do you assume that visitors to your site would buy the idea that the Internet is still only the wave of the FUTURE if they're using it right that minute? Then to say "it's the wave of today" is not only redundant but also illogical, if you understand that "wave" suggests something relentlessly moving to a destination and "today" suggests that the movement is static. Do you get what I mean? I think also that you have too much text. People don't need to know more than what you say in the last paragraph, IMHO.

Can't comment much on the design other than to wonder what you're trying to convey with the water drops. (Are you trying to make people in Utah feel less parched?) They and the overall gray design strike me as dull and cold.

The crossed-out $45/free message is a little confusing, probably because of the way you've juxtaposed "$45" and "free." If you cross out "$45," it seems that "value" is also crossed out, even though it isn't; just one of those goofy optical illusion things. WIthout the word "free" right over that and in the same font, it looks as if you're just devaluing yourself. If I were you, I'd re-work that area. While you're at it, consider making "Talk to Me" either all caps or don't capitalize "me." The upper/lower case seems awkward.

It looks as if you've changed your brand from the watch face you used to show us on your evolving business card. I like the triple W mark. Though it's unique (as far as I know), it reminds me of the Native American thunderbird design a little bit, which is a good thing.

Forgive me, but I have to be "Auntie Mara" for a minute. How old are you now? What grade are you in? How's it going?

Mara

natobasso's picture

Agreed. 1. Water drops bar

Agreed.

1. Water drops bar should be about 1/2 the height, if used at all.
2. Why is there no separate tab for "Services"? This is a logical page to have
3. I still hate the name Why Wait Webs. You aren't doing anything to strengthen that name choice with your branding. If you did, I'd be more on board with that as your biz name.
4. Make your own hand icon. You'll probably get in trouble for using the one that comes standard with whatever op system you borrowed that icon from. :)
5. I think you need to pick stronger colors. Muted powder blue, lime green and gray are very mellow, unexiting colors when used together.

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

luminousnerd.com's picture

Thanks for the comments

Thanks for the comments natobasso :)

I was thinking about shortening the height of that bar, so I'll definitely look into that.

I don't want a tab for services because it fits fine on the home page, and I want to have as few pages as possible. More pages has the effect of making people feel like there's a lot of information there, and depending on the type of site I think that can be a really good thing or a very bad thing. In my case I don't want them to feel overwhelmed at all, but completely relaxed and comfortable. Hence, I'm trying to keep it to as few pages as possible.

I'm sorry you're not a fan of my name, but most people love it. It's short, catchy, easy to remember, and it describes one of my strong points -- the ability to get things done a lot faster than many expect. What's more, it's already established. There is no changing it now.

The hand icon's actually taken from an OSS cursor set, but that set is meant to emulate the OS X cursors so I'm not really sure how all that works. At any rate, I think the pixelation goes counter to the fluidity of the rest of the page anyway, so I'm redesigning the whole button and probably won't include the cursor next time around :)

Do you have any color suggestions? The green was added after most everything was done, because of exactly what you said: the design was feeling boring/depressing. For me, with comparison to the grey it was before, the green is a lot more exciting, but I'm looking at it from a "how much it's improved" standpoint which clouds my judgement :) So I'm definitely open to suggestions with regard to the color scheme, but right now I can't seem to think of anything myself.

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

natobasso's picture

As a result of trying to

As a result of trying to have fewer pages your home page is more cluttered. I don't see that as being "relaxing" for the user. Good UI means all pages are accessible at all times. Are you only showing "Services" on the home page? If it's as important as the other tabs, I feel it deserves its own page as well as its own tab. It's just logical from a UI perspective.

Color-wise, just changing the green won't do it. You have very muted tones with the dark powder blue and gray. Go for more up beat colors (read: brighter) and in a combo that connotes professional action. I don't think you want your clients to be calm and mellow, do you?

This brings me to my point about your website and your name: They don't really go together. Why Wait connotes speed, whereas you want your users to feel "comfortable". You aren't selling furniture or mattresses here, you're selling websites! If your clientele wants mellow, you can give them that, but be clear about what they want and then provide that. Right now I feel a disconnect between the two. It's not so much that I don't like the name WWWebs, it's just your mission isn't clear.

Even though you aren't going to use the icon I'd advise against using anything from a trademarked/copywritten operating system such as OS X, Windows, or any other. They protect EVERYTHING about their logo/icon systems so you shouldn't risk a lawsuit (well, really just a cease and desist letter) by using their design without their permission. I remember a competitor to Adobe got sued for having their toolbar menu be too close to photoshop...

So I suggest you get the book "Color Harmony" for color ideas. But first figure out what your site's mission statement is. Then your site will be much more coherent. Right now it's dark, cluttered, and in need of a rethink.

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

luminousnerd.com's picture

Natobasso, I appreciate you

Natobasso, I appreciate you taking the time to critique my site. I just don't know what to say to that though. Never in a million years would I have thought of the word "cluttered" to describe this layout. It looks very clean and focused to me. If you truly think it is cluttered, I think you're looking at something else. And if you're not, well, I just can't relate to what you're saying at all.

I think if you choose what gets its own page and what doesn't based on importance you're going to come out with a really poor, unnavigable website. Things should be logically organized by where they logically belong, not how important they are.

The home page should immediately tell people who you are and what you do. That's what the services list does, so why should I have two separate pages to accomplish one goal? In general I think one page to one goal is good design; trying to accomplish more than one goal with one page is usually bad design, and having more than one page to accomplish a single goal is usually bad design. This one could go either way, it most certainly isn't bad design to have services on one's homepage.

It seems like every time I post a critique here I get critiqued on all the wrong things. Forgive me, but I was under the impression this was a DESIGN community? Yes, I know content is part of the design, and an important one. But I'm getting 99% comments on my content, which isn't even finalized, and 1% comments on the layout itself, which is what I most want feedback on. And for that the only feedback I'm getting here is "rethink it, start over".

Well I'm not going to start over. It's very good, very professional looking, and I feel it represents me well. If you don't like it, you're not my client. What I'm here for is suggestions to what I can CHANGE about THIS LAYOUT to further refine it. I'm not here for business advice.

By all means thank you for your time and effort, but I am not asking for critique on my content, but my DESIGN.

Thanks for the book suggestion, I'll be sure to check it out.

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

natobasso's picture

Dude, what is design without

Dude, what is design without content?! You've obviously come here for validation, not a critique. You should be honest about that next time.

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

luminousnerd.com's picture

You are entirely mistaken. I

You are entirely mistaken. I came here looking for valuable critique; I didn't say I was going to take everything you said and implement it immediately.

I am the designer, so naturally, I am the one who decides which critique I agree with, and which I do not.

I respect your differences in opinion, why don't you respect mine?

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

natobasso's picture

You seem very irrational in

You seem very irrational in your disagreement. That's my point, and that's what I'm objecting to.

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

luminousnerd.com's picture

Well to me you are the one

Well to me you are the one who seems irrational.

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

natobasso's picture

JT, you've given me no proof

JT, you've given me no proof of that. In fact, you have said some things here that just plain don't make sense. Anyway, probably time to end this needless debate.

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

luminousnerd.com's picture

Mara, thanks a lot for the

Mara, thanks a lot for the feedback, I truly appreciate it.

Underlined ideas may well be an outdated idea, and it doesn't look that great, but the fact is, it's what people expect. My dad's a bit of an Internet marketer so I have access to interesting statistics with regard to this sort of thing ... and links that aren't underlined don't get clicked nearly as much.

I think it is a much bigger mistake to have links that people don't immediately recognize as such, than to have text that some people might mistake for a link. I don't think anyone intelligent would believe my web page wasn't working correctly, I think they would mouse over it and come to the immediate conclusion that it isn't a link! But I've already debated others on this, so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Thank you for the comments on my text, I will take it into consideration when I rewrite it. I think that while most everyone recognizes potential in the Internet, people don't always realize the effects the Internet can have on their business TODAY, immediately. That's what I was trying to convey. A big part of my market is people who don't have websites, and if they don't already have one, then they obviously DO buy that the Internet is just the wave of the FUTURE.

The water drops are there because, at least for me, they convey relaxed and comfortable. It looks professional. I am still on the lookout for something that would work better there, if you have any ideas :) I really wanted to do clocks in that area, but I couldn't figure out a way to make any sort of clock fit those dimensions without looking like a photoshopped collage :)

Really appreciate all the comments on the button, you are right, it does not have at all the effect I want it to. I am going to scrap the button and work from scratch on that.

I'm 18, out of school, and glad to finally have time to focus on bettering my design skills and building my client base.

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

mara06's picture

I forgot about your father

I forgot about your father being your only source for what will or won't work on Web sites, and on marketing in general, IIRC. Please don't limit your horizons accordingly. Why not keep an open mind? You said, "I don't think anyone intelligent would believe my web page wasn't working correctly, I think they would mouse over it and come to the immediate conclusion that it isn't a link!" I'd like to inform you that I am agonizingly intelligent, and my first thought would be that your links aren't working. My second thought would be "wow, that's really annoying." Just saying.

Thanks for clarifying your thinking about the "wave of the future" issue. Perhaps it would be more effective to speak directly to potential clients, using the logic you presented to me, rather than approaching the matter indirectly by talking about the Internet, the future, and the present as a more generic theme. You make sense when you zero in on business owners who think of having a Web site as something for the future, when their need and the access your service provides can make it happen for them now. When you pull back to try to make the point more broadly, it falls apart.

Your water drops have nothing to do with your company. They look "professional" only in that they're a well-done photo. Since the water drops appear to be on glass, I don't think they say relaxed and comfortable. I think they say it's raining outside. The overwhelming dullness of all the gray in your layout reinforces this. I just don't get why you would cleave to that idea. Please rethink this element of your design. BTW, what's wrong with a Photoshopped collage? Any image that speaks directly to the issue of "not waiting" would be better than just generic raindrops on glass. I'm thinking you could even adapt the original illustrations from Alice in Wonderland of the White Rabbit (dragging his giant pocket watch) in some up-to-the-minute way. Maybe that's a horrible idea, not to mention a violation of copyright, but....

Congrats on your graduation! That's a big change. Now for the smaller ones. The really hard ones. One of those is getting your head around the idea that sometimes, what you think is absolutely fabulous goes over like a lead balloon with others, and there's not a whole lot you can do about that except learn from the observation and decide for yourself whether or not you ever want to attract the approval of others, or if pleasing yourself is all that matters to you. Many fine artists of the past and present have opted for the latter, and we honor their decision, sometimes even celebrate it as the right we allot to creative geniuses. When you "do art" specifically to sell stuff, however, you need to grow a lot of extra empathy cells in the part of your brain that decides what works for you and what doesn't, because how other people see your work is what it's all about.

Mara

luminousnerd.com's picture

You know, that's really not

You know, that's really not the case. However, my father has a lot of resources, I would be a complete idiot not to take them into account. I do have an open mind, and if you can't see that I'm sorry, but you're flat out wrong. Before I even came here I had already changed a LOT about this layout based on other peoples' critiques, many things I completely disagreed with at first but was willing to try.

Again, I really appreciate your effort spent cirtiquing. I do have an open mind, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to agree with everything. We obviously differ in opinion on a lot of things, but that doesn't mean I haven't taken much of what you've told me to heart, and the next revision will reflect that.

I really wish you'd stop accusing me of having a closed mind. I have come here with a very open mind, and it really doesn't make any sense at all to me that I AGREED with you on the color issue, and asked for suggestions, and now for that I apparently am "cleaving" to the idea of grey...

In the past, I'll admit that I was a bit closed minded when I came here. I came here with a completely open mind this time, ready to implement any changes that would make my site better. And yet you STILL accuse me of a closed mind. I've gone back and re-read everything I said, and I have done NOTHING to suggest I'm closed minded.

I think it comes down to whether or not you can accept the fact that even someone with a completely open mind doesn't agree with every single suggestion thrown at them! I disagree with some of the things you said, so that's life. Don't call me closed minded for it, I have taken your suggestions, weighed them against alternatives, and decided accordingly.

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

mara06's picture

Honey, I didn't say you had

Honey, I didn't say you had a closed mind. I suggested the advantage of keeping an open one." The nuanced difference is important.

It wasn't the gray color I referred to when asking why you were sticking so tightly to a design idea that it seemed you wouldn't be able to separate yourself from it ("cleave" says that in fewer words). I was referring to the raindrops theme.

Be prepared in life for people to take issue with you about your beliefs and ideas. They certainly will. And oyu will often certainly disagree with them. The way to respond when this happens is not to start lashing out. What you do is smile and say, "Thanks. Great ideas!" Then you go to lunch, come back, gulp down something for your stomach ache, and hit the drawing board. Whether you come away from it with anything different from what you had before is up to you. Just please do yourself a favor and consider, before you create that next or final draft, whether some of the comments you got around the conference table might have had some merit.

Mara

natobasso's picture

+1.

+1. Bravo!

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

luminousnerd.com's picture

I haven't cleaved to the

I haven't cleaved to the idea of the raindrops either, I have no attachment to them at all. As I've said several times now, they weren't even what I originally planned to use. I am and always have been open to changing them, and as I've already stated, WILL be changing them

I love getting other peoples' take on things, and I have been receptive and thankful for those in this forum so far.

Giving advice to someone about their character, presupposes that there was a flaw. Telling me I need to be open minded is one and the same with telling me I'm closed minded.

But never mind all that, let's keep the critique to the design, which, by the way, I have scrapped.

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

Going along with what

Going along with what everyone else is saying. I am a strong belive as well that links have to be underline for easier usability on large texts, but I also thought these were going to be links.

The water drops don't say anything about you or your work, and it doesn't complement at all with the rest of the design.

I think you need more contrast with the colors, the headers and the black background look boring

I think you can do something more interesting with the talk to me button, and get rid of the unnecessary drop shadows.

I also think you have too much information on the homepage. I would cut the text down, and add some samples of your work somewhere in the homepage.

Hope that helps

luminousnerd.com's picture

Thank you so much for your

Thank you so much for your comments.

With so many people expecting colored text to be links, it's a miracle anyone can get around on the web. While I don't at all understand this way of thinking, if this seems to be the predominant opinion then it is something I must rethink.

I agree with you on the water drops not saying what I do. I will consider alternatives to this. Like I said, I wanted to put clocks there originally, but I am afraid of a collage that looks too fake. I suppose that is a hurdle to overcome, not one to avoid.

Reworking the color scheme, the button, and the textual content.

Thank you!

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

mara06's picture

Jt, I think the issue of

Jt, I think the issue of color = links is just when you color specific text in a paragraph, not just any old colored words that you might see in a layout. Those of use who read a lot of text-intensive blogs and online publications, where colored words usually mean a link, are probably more likely to criticize you for this than some other people.

Mara

jHouse's picture

Agreed

Try using simple Bold or Italics.

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UPDATED PORTFOLIO
www.jhousedesign.com

jHouse's picture

My take on the DESIGN

Personally,

I don't like the font used. It's not a web font in my eyes. I think the logo at the top has too much of a drop shadow. I think you need to have a space after the bullets on that list to the right. I don't understand the meaning behind the water. I don't like the large pixelated hand.

I wouldn't say this was cluttered, but I certainly wouldn't say it looks clean.

Not stealing anything from this critique, take a look at what I'm working on for myself. This is what I would call clean:

I'm no web expert. This is my first design for my new website. I will eventually be having more than one page. I never understand why designers insert items such as your water drops with no meaning.

(EXCUSE THE SKYPE AND AIM LOGO, also the image has cropped for some reason)
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UPDATED PORTFOLIO
www.jhousedesign.com

luminousnerd.com's picture

Appreciate the

Appreciate the input.

Verdana is indeed a web-font, it is used a lot, and is frequently suggested by designers as one of the best professional looking fonts to use for a website. There really isn't much choice when it comes to web fonts, and I've seen them all; I have to say that I think this one works best for this design. If you have an alternative suggestion I'm more than happy to see how it looks with fresh eyes, but I've already tried them all and to me, and at the time this one looked best to me.

I reduced the drop shadow on my logo, and you are right, it looks much better. Thanks for that tip!

Well, I have to say that I don't think your design is as clean as mine. To me the fact that the portfolio is on the home page is "cluttery". The upper part is definitely clean, but add in the bottom half, and it takes away from the clean. That's my opinion.

I agree with you saying that inserting items without a meaning or purpose, is a mistake, and the water drops won't remain in the final design.

Still, I think not having any unique imagery at all is a much bigger mistake as it will quickly make a site really boring and unmemorable. Even a horrifically designed website is better than a very well designed website if after they leave, the visitor remembers the horrible one and forgets about the good one.

Thanks again for all the feedback :D

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

natobasso's picture

"Even a horrifically

"Even a horrifically designed website is better than a very well designed website if after they leave, the visitor remembers the horrible one and forgets about the good one."

Why would someone remember, or ever want to revisit, a horribly designed website?

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

luminousnerd.com's picture

A number of reasons. For

A number of reasons. For one, content trumps design, the vast majority of web users could care less what a site looks like.

Secondly, as I said, the more memorable of the two is the winner. Sure a user may not want to revisit a poorly designed site, but if they don't remember a site, then they don't even have the option of revisiting it. Still better to be in their memory.

For example, bright obnoxious banner ads with stuff moving around almost always make a lot more money than ones that are "good design".

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

natobasso's picture

How many successful sites

How many successful sites have you worked on? If you annoy your viewer with annoying design, I can assure with 100% certainty that your site will NOT be popular.

Content and Design go hand in hand. They must work together. You must learn this in order to progress further.

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

luminousnerd.com's picture

natobasso, you're wrong,

natobasso, you're wrong, sorry, but that's just wrong. It's statistically inaccurate.

You are right in your concept, content and design go hand in hand, and I agree. If you read what I've said, I have said absolutely nothing to the contrary.

You have no idea how many successful sites I've had a part in, and I know for a fact that "annoying" is a very good thing at times. Your "100% assurance" is based on nothing, no facts. I have seen statistics from various sites for hundreds of thousands of people, and I KNOW what works and what doesn't work, from a sales standpoint. And you're wrong, annoying design is frequently the best way to go :)

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

natobasso's picture

Show

Show me.

Even the "Best" worst site comes in at around #550,000:
http://www.angelfire.com/super/badwebs/. Ashamed to say it's got a better ranking than my company's website (www.healthlinesystems.com -- I designed this, by the way so fire away!) but it shows me that the best the MOST ANNOYING SITE CAN DO is at this level.

I don't see more annoying sites breaking #500,000 or #100,000, do you? If you have an example, I'll eat my words.

I don't believe that a site a little bit less "annoying" than this one will do better. An annoying site that doesn't intend to be --and I think this is your point-- will lose visitors. This means it WILL NOT BE POPULAR. Why can't you understand this?

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

mara06's picture

Jt, you're citing stats that

Jt, you're citing stats that have been around for several decades now, to whit, that to sell something effectively, you have to irritate the hell out of the listener/viewer so they'll remember your product. that's what's behind all those ads we all love to hate, starting with "please don't squeeze the Charmin" and ending with that disgusting guy with the Orange Glo Floor Polish and dozens of other products.

I go out of my way not to buy those products, even though they are really very fine products. That's how much I resent being manipulated by Mad Men.

I can't believe that an ugly site, difficult to navigate, that's slow and erratic because the pictures are too big, or that have cockroaches running across the screen for shock value -- and yes, I've seen an ad exactly like that, but I don't remember what the product was -- I can't believe that such a site could be considered a statistical winner IN ALL MARKETS FOR ALL CONSUMERS. And that's the key. You have to bring your own empathy, insight and wisdom to your Web designs to satisfy the needs of your client and their target markets.

Mara

luminousnerd.com's picture

You guys misunderstand my

You guys misunderstand my entire point.

I WANT to have a well designed website. I'm not suggesting that I'm better off making a crappy looking site, or that it's ALWAYS effective.

I am merely pointing out that good design is one small part of a successful business. Or it can be a big part, it really depends on the industry and quality of your work.

I never even remotely suggested that bad design was statistically better in all markets for all consumers! In fact I very specifically pointed out that it only works SOMETIMES!

I don't know what it is about the people at CreativeBits, because everyone else usually understands me when I say simple things. Maybe you should try not skipping over every other adjective.

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

natobasso's picture

Well, excuse me, but I can

Well, excuse me, but I can only go by what you posted.
I don't make this stuff up!

Just to quote one example of your strange ideas: "And you're wrong, annoying design is frequently the best way to go :)"

Not sure if you were joking when you said this but you seemed to defend the point vigorously, without actually providing any facts, so I took it to mean that you were serious about the point. You've made more here that were just as silly but you can simply reread what you've written here. No need for me to rehash.

I can't see how any of your missteps are my fault?

Anyway, hope I haven't killed your desire to make this site better. I do encourage you to work on it further.

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

luminousnerd.com's picture

Annoying design _IS_

Annoying design _IS_ frequently the best way to go, and I DID back it up with valid examples. While I can't give you access to private statistics, I can say that I've seen them and people notice ugly banner ads, and click on them. They frequently convert better than banner ads that fit the scheme of the page and are well laid out.

Whether you believe me or not is of no consequence. The statistics are real and I know the truth.

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

natobasso's picture

If there's so much "Truth"

If there's so much "Truth" there, why not at least show it? As of now this is just a useless pissing match on your part.

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

luminousnerd.com's picture

On my part? It may well be

On my part? It may well be a useless pissing match, but you have contributed as much as me. Anyway I'm just defending myself: you're accusing me of pulling random lies out of my ass, which simply isn't true, what am I supposed to do?

I can't give you those statistics, they're not mine to give.

And I hate bad, annoying design as much as anyone here but you have to go with what brings in the bux.

Mara I understand how you feel about going out of your way to avoid products that advertise annoyingly -- and I agree! It's just that we are in the minority, most people don't really care, and the annoying ones get their attention.

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

jHouse's picture

Ok

I'm 19, didn't go to uni and I might not know ALL the terminology, but "clean" strikes plain, uncluttered, clear.

You can have a clean but cluttered site. Although cluttered is a negative word, you can have a busy but clean site.

Levi for example, have a clean site but its ALWAYS busy.

2advanced.com...very busy, extremely clean.

Clean is more like "tidy, organised, fresh"

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UPDATED PORTFOLIO
www.jhousedesign.com

luminousnerd.com's picture

Hmm, well maybe everyone's

Hmm, well maybe everyone's not on the same page because 2Advanced is the farthest thing from my idea of clean. But then, I wouldn't call 2Advanced tidy or well organized either. :)

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

jHouse's picture

OMFG. Did he just insult

OMFG. Did he just insult 2advanced????

I....I....I think he did......

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UPDATED PORTFOLIO
www.jhousedesign.com

natobasso's picture

JT, 2Advanced is so far

JT, 2Advanced is so far beyond your skillset that it's laughable you are even mentioning them in any sense other than reverent.

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

jHouse's picture

Whos JT?

Me? I have deepest respect for 2A.

Whats your point?

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UPDATED PORTFOLIO
www.jhousedesign.com

luminousnerd.com's picture

Yeah, their site is

natobasso, you are a terrible designer if you honestly think good design has anything at all to do with technical skill.

2Advanced is very advanced website, and it most certainly works for their business. I am most certainly not insulting them, it obviously works! Whatever brings in the bux, as I was saying earlier. I find their website is overwhelming, and difficult to navigate. That doesn't mean it isn't Cool, or that it doesn't work, it's just that it's not my taste.

Why are you so anti-opinion? Does everything have to be a matter of who's right, who's wrong, with you??? I don't like the 2Advanced site. I respect it because it took a lot of skill to create, but I still don't like its design. So FUCKING SUE ME.

Natobasso your comments are no longer helpful whatsoever, just insulting. So please leave. I don't want your advice or critique any more.

mara06's picture

Jt, I actually agree with

Jt, I actually agree with you (!) about the 2Advanced Web site being difficult to navigate. It's spectacularly beautiful, but it kind of just looks like a pointless video game. Maybe other users with different needs would be able to go right to what they want, and find it, but it seems really clunky to me in that regard.

Mara

natobasso's picture

Luminous, you are a crazed

Luminous, you are a crazed lunatic.

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

natobasso's picture

"natobasso, you are a

"natobasso, you are a terrible designer if you honestly think good design has anything at all to do with technical skill."

Again, I don't know where to begin to tell you how incorrect this statement is.

As far as leaving goes, I've been here far longer than you have. I'm not leavin. :)

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

jHouse's picture

Oh. JT is the OP

Sorry!

But I mentioned them....

Got me confused there.

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jHouse's picture

Little harsh though bud

Tone it down a bit gees. He's only 18 the little whippersnapper ;)

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jHouse's picture

Oh, and I can't help but add..

That grammar needs adjusting...

...even mentioning them in any sense other than REVERENCE?

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luminousnerd.com's picture

You know, use the fact that

You know, use the fact that I'm 18 years old as an excuse to treat me like a kid all you want. But I'm a seasoned design professional, no matter what my age might be.

I came here for critique on one certain thing. Content goes hand in hand with design, I KNOW THIS, and I have never argued to the contrary, and yet you are talking to me as if I've been insisting that content had nothing to do with design! I'M NOT SAYING THAT! Content has EVERYTHING to do with design, BUT I'M NOT HERE FOR CRITIQUE ON SOMETHING I HAVEN'T EVEN WORKED ON YET!!!!!

I'M HERE FOR CRITIQUE ON MY DESIGN.

It seems that creativebits is not the place for me to come when I want critique on my design. It is the place to come when I want to be belittled and told I have a closed mind even though I have demonstrated absolutely nothing but open-mindedness, and get critiqued on practically EVERYTHING ABOUT ME (not just my work) EXCEPT for the one thing I came here for critique.

For the nuggets of helpfulness that are found in this thread, which have come from pretty much everyone who's posted, I thank you all. I have thanked you in virtually every post and this will be the last time because if you don't GET it by now that I'm grateful and open to the advice you have given, then I don't know how else to put it.

For the rest of the bullshit about critiquing stuff I didn't ask for a critique on, and for belittling me personally and saying I have no skill, thanks for nothing. You're wrong, I am a fantastic designer, and if you can't see that, you're the one who is missing out.

I'm done with this thread.

jHouse's picture

Before you go...

I'm 19. I was being sarcastic. In fact, you remind me of me.

I had a MASSIVE argument with Natobasso who can be a prize prick sometimes, when I first joined here. I got pissed off, but then I realised he really does know what he's talking about.

Everything he says is valid. You can chose to ignore it, like I am going to with my website :)....
but don't get personal.

At the end of the day, its your work.

Have fun designing. Thats the whole point. I design to make things look pretty.

:)

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UPDATED PORTFOLIO
www.jhousedesign.com

Leaky Penny's picture

Bravo! Well said.

I also think i got an email from you on Facebook, from a Vector Art group I believe, I'd have to check again, but it was from a Jack Bingham in Bristol if I'm not mistaken.

Leaky Penny
www.leakypenny.com

Believe it or not, I can actually draw. - Jean Michel Basquiat

jHouse's picture

You're in my facebook group?!?!?!?!

AWESOME!

I could make you an admin if you want! I need people to help me answer the millions of messages I get!!

Whats your real name? I'm not in Bristol, thats just my network...close enough though..

Jack
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UPDATED PORTFOLIO
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Leaky Penny's picture

Sure, I'll add you on tonight...

I don't know how helpful I'll be answering questions since I'm never on though! There's a Creativebits group too, only a handful of us though...

Leaky Penny
www.leakypenny.com

Believe it or not, I can actually draw. - Jean Michel Basquiat

natobasso's picture

"I had a MASSIVE argument

"I had a MASSIVE argument with Natobasso who can be a prize prick sometimes, when I first joined here. I got pissed off, but then I realised he really does know what he's talking about."

Thanks; I think... :)

I have strong opinions and highly value facts. They make or break an argument. I get into trouble the more forceful my opinion becomes and I adhere to the facts in a debate more than the feelings. I find not everyone appreciates this, and that is something I'm working on.

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

luminousnerd.com's picture

I know he's a great

I know he's a great designer. I'm taking things too personally. My bad.

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

jHouse's picture

Haha

He won't fall for that. It will take a while for him to steam off.

I haven't ever seen any of his work, so I can't comment ;)

Sure it's pretty poor though. Haha.

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UPDATED PORTFOLIO
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Leaky Penny's picture

Oh oh...

I'd finish off that comment with a "/jokes" tag just to be on the safe side!

Leaky Penny
www.leakypenny.com

Believe it or not, I can actually draw. - Jean Michel Basquiat

jHouse's picture

JOKE

JOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKEJOKE

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UPDATED PORTFOLIO
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natobasso's picture

Most of us here don't know

Most of us here don't know you personally so how can we criticize you personally?

Basically you've made some outlandishly incorrect claims and I called you on them. You had no proof for those claims so I rest my case. Sorry you had to get your panties in a bunch over it.

By the way, no one here cares how old you are!

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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"

luminousnerd.com's picture

Right, Look I'm sorry I've

Right,
Look I'm sorry I've taken your comments too personally. When I asked you to leave I certainly didn't mean to leave Creativebits. You have been here longer, you are a more senior designer, and I have respect for you for that.

I didn't make any outlandish claims, and you didn't prove me wrong on anything. What's actually going on here is you putting words into my mouth.

I think we agree on core concepts, our disagreements seem to arise from a lack of communication. I've done my best to put things clearly but it seems you still don't understand what I mean, so I give up.

What you guys gotta understand is that, you're all extremely good designers, which is great, and I want to better myself in that area. However you're telling me not to limit myself based on the business side of things -- everyone on the business side of things tells me not to limit myself on the design side of things. I have to find the best balance between both.

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

Leaky Penny's picture

I've scanned through...

..this thread and have come to the conclusion that you came here to get your ego stroked, not for a critique.You won't be in business long if you play it so defensive and don't consider other peoples feedback, none of "daddys" resources wont be enough to save you.

Also: A "seasoned" designer to me is someone with AT LEAST 5 years experience. have you been doing this since the age of 13?
We don't seem to have the same definition of "fantastic" you and I. The only word I can come up with when looking at uyour portfolio is "decent".

You remind me of another newbie on this site *cough Jhouse cough* who came in like an untamed young buck but seems to shaping up to be quite a productive and mature citizen of the creativebits ecosphere.

Just my 2 cents, I doubt you care.

Leaky Penny
www.leakypenny.com

Believe it or not, I can actually draw. - Jean Michel Basquiat

jHouse's picture

OMFG

"You remind me of another newbie on this site *cough Jhouse cough* who came in like an untamed young buck but seems to shaping up to be quite a productive and mature citizen of the creativebits ecosphere."

I just creamed.

And I've been designing since I was 9.

I loved Crayola.

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Leaky Penny's picture

The red ones...

were particularily tasty! :P

Leaky Penny
www.leakypenny.com

Believe it or not, I can actually draw. - Jean Michel Basquiat

luminousnerd.com's picture

I'm afraid you've come to

I'm afraid you've come to the wrong conclusion. I've already mentioned, I am very open minded and open to critique, and that's exactly why I came. You are simply mis-reading me.

I am here for critique, not an ego-stroke. Fact.

And actually yes, I've also been designing since I was 9! Though, obviously not full time.

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

Leaky Penny's picture

I'm not going to read the rest of this post...

...so if I go over some stuff that have been said already, forgive me.

I don't find this design appealing at all. The water droplets need to go. The font looks a little weird to me, doesn't really look like a web font, but that could just be my personal taste. The copy looks like something you wrote back in 1991. The future? Really? Speaking of the copy, it seems there's WAY too much. It needs to breath a little.
Also, when I try and look at the site by typing in the URL at work, it's blocked for nudity and pornography (?) That might be an issue for some clients who want to view your site and can't.

Leaky Penny
www.leakypenny.com

Believe it or not, I can actually draw. - Jean Michel Basquiat

luminousnerd.com's picture

Thanks for the critique,

Thanks for the critique, does seem to be along the same lines of what others are saying. I will be redesigning this, and keep this in mind.

Not sure why it would be blocked for nudity or pornography, sounds like a really bad filter to me. Not really sure what I can do about it :/

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

Leaky Penny's picture

It might actually be...

over zealous filters here at work, but if it's like this for me, what of potential clients?

Leaky Penny
www.leakypenny.com

Believe it or not, I can actually draw. - Jean Michel Basquiat

luminousnerd.com's picture

Yep, certainly not something

Yep, certainly not something I want, but what do I do about it? It might be because it's all flash right now (stupid, stupid, I know!!).

But anyway, it's their filter, I don't really have any control over it unless you have any suggestions.

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

Leaky Penny's picture

nothign I can think of really...

but definitely gonna look into it. Don't want to alienate anybody now...

A site can be done in Flash, as long as it's done in a way where it's light and doesn't use EVERY single gimmick available to you. I hear AS3 is google friendly, gonna have to research some more of that when I have a sec.

Leaky Penny
www.leakypenny.com

Believe it or not, I can actually draw. - Jean Michel Basquiat

luminousnerd.com's picture

Yeah, actually Flash in

Yeah, actually Flash in general is Google-friendly now, AS1, 2, or 3. Although I don't trust that it's getting indexed as thoroughly as non-Flash. Can't follow the links within the Flash, and has no way of knowing what's a header, what's content, images don't have ALT tags, etc.

Anyway there is no reason for my site to be all flash, so it's a bad thing. I set it up 2-3 years ago with the intention of replacing it within a matter of weeks.

Since then I have *tried* to design my own site about 10 different times and scrapped every damn one of them. :(

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

luminousnerd.com's picture

So I really need to get my

So I really need to get my website up and running soon. I am at a loss now. I have tried to design this thing so many times.

So here's some things that I'm probably lacking, if anyone can help with any of these I would be very grateful.

1. I am lacking a clear vision of what I want my site to look like. I have many ideas, and they always fall short of what I really want my image to be, which I can't put in words.

2. I am lacking a solid workflow. I usually jott down my ideas, target audience, goals, and sketch up a few concepts, then dive into making it in Flash. Perhaps there are more pre-production steps I should take that can help me be more productive when I'm in the building phase.

3. I can't work on my own stuff! It never comes out as good as my work for others!

I'm kicking myself. I don't know how to move forward.

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

3dogmama's picture

My man, working on your own

My man, working on your own stuff is the most freakin' FUN part about being a designer!!!! Have a drink, put on some tunes, whatever it takes...have a blast. You get to direct you in this project scenario. The design sky is the limit!

Can't wait to see what you do with the web site. Still think the mark in your logo rocks.
3dog.

"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible."
— Frank Zappa

mbennett2's picture

How did I miss this train

How did I miss this train wreck?? Stupid client deadlines...

jHouse's picture

LOL!

Last!

Oooo yea!

71 baby.

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UPDATED PORTFOLIO
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3dogmama's picture

Choo. Choo. 72. "Without

Choo. Choo.
72.

"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible."
— Frank Zappa

jHouse's picture

Man

This has to be the longest Critique on the WHOLE site.

ehemlastcough

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UPDATED PORTFOLIO
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luminousnerd.com's picture

Don't want to start a whole

Don't want to start a whole nother critique for this unfinished attempt...but what are your thoughts on this one?

http://www.whywaitwebs.com/screenshot03.png

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

Leaky Penny's picture

Dude...

Go with this one! Work it up a bit, work on the clock. Yes, this is good. This is good.

Leaky Penny
www.leakypenny.com

“If you do what you love to do, then you won’t do it in an average way.”
~ Angela Bassett

luminousnerd.com's picture

Thanks! :D Ok, I think I

Thanks! :D Ok, I think I will illustrate a clock instead of photos as suggested earlier. Also something needs to be done with the tabs/border

Thanks a lot!

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

mara06's picture

Now you're talkin'

This is getting you closer to where you need to be.

I can't be sure, but it seems you have a few words bolded in your introductory paragraph. In such a short 'graph, you don't need that. But if you choose to go that way, I think the bolding needs to be bolder.

I agree about the tabs. They remind me of high school notebooks, or those gawd-awful Franklin-Covey planner things.

Mara

luminousnerd.com's picture

Mara, Thanks a ton for the

Mara,
Thanks a ton for the tips. Indeed, there are some bold words, unfortunately the app I use (Flash) doesn't allow you to adjust the weight, but when I CSS it, I will surely make any bold words clearly bold.

But, I also agree with you that I don't need any bold in such a short bit of text.

I'm about to post the new version of this as a new critique, I do hope you'll chime in on it :D

Thanks again!

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

3dogmama's picture

You BET lose the tabs.

You BET lose the tabs. They've bothered me the way through.
Cheers.
3dog

"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible."
— Frank Zappa

luminousnerd.com's picture

What would you do? Buttons?

What would you do? Buttons? Text links? I wasn't planning on totally getting rid of them, just making them a little more shapely and stylish, but if you think they shouldn't be tabs at all I'm open to input there.

Thanks!

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

3dogmama's picture

Try knocking them out of a

Try knocking them out of a band (running left to right) in your site's secondary colour, and/or if more separation is wanted, then hit them varying screens in behind. Or, if you're going with your clock illustration (which I can't wait to see btw), then I'd "write" them in a plain digital clock font such as LCD, or an antiquated font. It will all depend on what sort of clock you employ in your final drawing.
Cheers.
3dog

"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible."
— Frank Zappa

luminousnerd.com's picture

Thanks for the idea! I

Thanks for the idea! I tried it and I think it works pretty well. Keeping it simple.

I'm about to post a new critique, hope you'll have some thoughts!

BTW I love your sig.

Thanks!
Jt

Jt Hollister
www.whywaitwebs.com

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