Printing Question
brianmot (100 points) | Tue, 2009-02-10 15:09Hello,
This is probably a very silly question but i must ask because im fairly new to printing. I am doing a small book and have these "zoom-in" circles that have this light blue background. These circles are all over the places and I need the color to be accurate. Im searching through my pantone swatch chart and each blue seems to be too dark.. it needs to be a very light blue. What is the deal on changing the tint of pantones? is that an amateur move? Do printers hate that? I am thinking sending the printer some proof .pdfs with a range of pantones with ranging tints so i can see which blue will print best. like pantone 545 C 100%, 80%, 60%, 40% etc. Is this OK? or should i just send a range of process color blues? Im sorta in a pinch and need some printer etiquette. Thanks.
-Brian
I dont have the money for a pantone book with tints :(
ask your printer if they have one and if you can go in and look at it.
I started to put in my 2 cents worth in early March and got sidetracked. Since I had almost finished when I was interrupted, I figured I'd post it anyway.
Here is color printing in 25 words or less: The printer makes a proof. You approve, or correct and reproof until satisfied. The printer makes the final product look like the final proof. Deliver.
Additional words: Give the client a choice-- spend more for consistent color for icons, trademarks, etc., or be willing to accept "Just OK" and pay less. Will they pay extra for spot inks to get the former? Consider ...
1. You get points for not surprising them; 2. They see that your quote is dependent on their requirements; 3. Your work and the money you get for it doesn't change; and 4. The client will be more likely to be happy and come back to you the next time.
Even More Advice: Proofs vary. Some printers are good at it, some are less good. Nothing's perfect yet.
Digital proofs will not show pantone colors accurately -- let me say that again: ...DIGITAL PROOFS WILL NOT SHOW PANTONE COLORS ACCURATELY. Swatch books that are less than a year old that haven't been heated to extremes, or gotten wet, or exposed to bright light are the only accurate example because they show actual ink printed on actual stock. Even then you have to be careful about paper color, absorbency, etc.
If you want to learn more on your own, read print specs at printer's sites. Google and read. Lots of specs -- don't take notes; just get your brain to see trends and universals.
Then, do your first print job locally, and not online/overseas. Period.
Because you are new to printing on paper, you have a lot to learn, and probably a short time to learn it. You do not need to learn each little thing after you did it wrong the first time and you are a week past your deadline.
You need to be able to go to the printer's plant and get a tour. A good customer service representative (CSR they call them) will be glad to arrange it. It is in the printer's best interest to avoid problems by educating you somewhat.
You need to see the press running and have the pressman explain what you are seeing. You need to go see what a prepress technician does -- how do they handle your file; what's the most common error new customers make; how can you help them help you?.
You need to see someone creating the imposition. You need to see the plates being made. You need to have a visceral feeling for where your digital files go and what they become.
You need to see what a digital proof looks like next to the final product on somebody else's job, in a 5000K light booth.
If you don't do these things, you will always be imagining what the process looks like, and some concepts will never be clear.
OK -- 2 cents worth in a dollar box. Oh well...
tints of PMS colors are very common and is exactly what you should do if you're using multiple shades of a similar blue. much cheaper than speccing a second PMS color. what you're thinking of asking your printer to do is, IIRC, called a "draw down." but it's usually done when you want to see how an ink prints on a specific paper.
if you want to see how the PMS color will tint, pantone makes tint books that show you what different percentages look like when printed (in 10% increments) both as a solid block and in a 1-color image.
now, you also mentioned process color (process color blues). how exactly are you printing this piece? process color (CMYK) is a 4 color printing process. pantone colors are individual spot colors and are additional inks to be laid down when printing. so if you're printing a process color document with 1 spot color, there will be 5 plates (CMYK + spot). if it's process plus 2 spot colors, there will be 6 plates (CMYK + 2 spot plates). every spot color you add will increase the cost of printing.
Gwells,
Thank you much for the response. The printer isnt local so i dont have the option to go check out their pantone swatch. I just emailed the printer and asked him how many plates we get for the quote he gave us.
Now that you have explained this a bit better for me I am questioning If i even need spot printing. My only concern is that the layout has a lot of white space and the blue needs to be subtle. Is it a terrible idea to send him a proof page with a bunch of different process blues? I will probably get the proof back on a high gloss photo paper and not the actual paper it will be printed on so it wont be exact..
What do you guys do when you need a certain color(im just afraid the blue will be too dark and ruin the layout) but dont have the option for spot colors? Do you guys just use a process color and hope it works out?
I primarily do web stuff for work and am working on my first big print project and i dont want to goof it up :)
Get the color right and send them a sample "for color". They can adjust on press to meet your needs.
Brian, is this a four-color process print job, or a spot color job? If you don't know, find out. That's critical. Provide an answer to that question, and I'll help you.
Oh, also, what application are you using to create your book's layout?
Mara
We were quoted for a 4 color process but have the option of up to 4 spot colors. I was concerned about a light blue but went to a print friends place and looked through his papers and decided that its best if i go with just a 18-22% cyan because that is consistent print and not the price of a spot color.
I am using Indesign for the layout. 256 pages split into 10 chapters. you can see the layout roughly here. its an exercise book.
www.brianloughner.com/uploads/spread.jpg
I had a few proofs done at different local print places and the red in the layout all came out differently. I am thinking about getting the spot red like 186C or 485 C. I would like it to be a bit of a darker red though.
Print question--- 100 Y and 100 M = RED. when you guys want it to be a darker red, do you had Cyan or do you add K? I have heard different responses.
Thanks for your help :)
Each of those optional spot colors will cost you extra. They obviously have an 8-color press. To stay within your budgetary expectations, stick to four-color process. 20% Cyan is fine, though a little unimaginative.
I'll take a look at your project and post again.
Mara
Yeah, $0.36 more per book for a run of 5,000 for one spot color. The boss gave me the approval and i will more than likely go with it because the red is such a huge part of the layout. I still might go with a process red though. 100% magenta and 100% yellow makes a nice red but i need it a bit darker and not sure to add 5-10% cyan or 5-10% Key. I just don't have the experience to make that call and would rather be safe than sorry.
The 20% cyan is a bit unimaginative but its better than leaving it up to the printers imagination to figure out what color it should be :)
Thanks for your help! I have learned so much since my first post but Im sure ill be posting again soon.
There is absolutely no reason for you to go with an additional spot color to get the red (or blue) you want. Save yourself the $1,800 per spot color. For a job like this, that's ridiculous.
If the red in the shirts of the people have to be changed, you can easily do that in Photoshop. Is the blue background in the circles in the original Photoshop files, or did you create those some other way? You can settle on the correct build for that blue also, and change all the backgrounds to that build. This is doing it backwards, of course. I assume you know that.
What do you mean by "5-10% cyan or 5-10% Key."? Do you mean to M100Y100, should you add 10% Cyan and 10% Black (K stands for Black and is pronounced K, like the letter K. It's abbreviated that way instead of B so it won't be confised with Blue. That build is probably going to be a little to orangey-brick red for you. If you just want a darker read, add 10K to the build. You realize you must do this yourself in the original files. You don't just tell the printer to do that, right?
The red for the headers etc. you can do in InDesign. You can sample the red you wind up with for the shirts and use that build.
You do not leave it to the printer's imagination to choose colors for you. That isn't how it works. You do the work yourself, hand the layout and all accompanying files (or just a high-rez PDF) over to them, and that's it. If you've done your work properly, the proof will be fine and you can okay the press run.
If all of this is still way over your head, you really need to hire someone knowledgeable to do this job for you or you are going to be very disappointed in the result. Seriously.
Mara
I have always liked your posts and know you have helped a lot of people. That being said..i feel like you're talking to me like im an idiot lol. I know that my first post does sound ignorant but im not stupid..
I luckily had enough control over the photo shoot where i could photoshop batch the background off the images. All the photos have transparent backgrounds and are placed into my document. Besides the Photos, i LITERALLY only have 4 colors in my inDesign file. (1.) The Red which is the header and the numbers, (2.) the gray (c0,m0,y0,K40 or 40% K) which makes up the outline and footer text, and the (3.) light blue and (4.) black - K. If you take into consideration how much its going to cost for 5,000 books, $1800 isn't that bad to make sure you red is really going to POP.
100%K , 100K, 100% KEY are synonymous. K actually stands for "Key" and i know its black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMYK) The reason i mentioned process red is because a dark process red is made up a few different ways. some people add CYAN to darken the red, some people add K (black) to darken the red. My question was asking which people prefer for print.
I know how to send documents to printers and setup my PDF x file for most any printer. I have had proofs made from two different local companies and their RIP and paper have produced different reds HENCE my concern. I said earlier in the post that the printer isnt local so i cant run over and get some samples. most proofs i get are on a high gloss paper and not the actual paper its going to be printed on and the color is always a little off.
So to answer my question... you add K to your reds to darken them? okay thanks!
K = "Key" in a process color build? First time I ever heard that. "Color key," or "keyline," now those are different. I suppose someone, somewhere, has abbreviated them in their notebooks as "K." Gosh, that Wikipedia is just amazing. You be sure to believe every single thing you read in it, okay? That way, you can't possibly go wrong, and you'll always be able to show up everyone, no matter how much more experience they have in whatever you had to look up.
For the record, no, I do not necessarily darken my reds in process jobs by adding Black. That's oversimplifying. There are many, many options. Every job needs to be looked at on its own merit. "For print" is hardly a narrow enough focus to define what shade of red something should be.
Oh well. You clearly know everything about four color process printing, so I'm a little surprised you needed so much basic information about it at the beginning. Forgive me for having assumed you didn't know what you were doing. I'm sure you can imagine how horribly ashamed I feel for having offered to prevent you from making expensive mistakes. I just don;t know how I'm going to live with myself now.
I may have to start drinking heavily.
Mara
"Key" and "blacK" are used interchangeably for what the "K" stands for in CMYK, but black is more common usage, since the reality is it is black ink, so black is more accurate to a printer. technically, the additive color space is CMY and 100C/100M/100Y theoretically add up to black. but it's not an accurate black, hence the fourth color (black) being added to 4 color process. even the wikipedia article you quote shows both definitions. while the original K may have come from the "key" plate, i don't think it was lost on the originators of the definition that it is also the last letter in black and that using CMYB could cause confusion with Blue. it's a happy coincidence that it works handily for both.
and pocketpal, generally considered one of the primary handbooks to graphic production (produced by international paper and often used in production classes in college (including my production class)) defines "K" as blacK.
most offset printers would know what you meant if you said either. but it's not worth getting uppity about and pretending that one definition is more right than the other. they're both valid definitions.
gwells,
yeah. like i mentioned before they are synonymous. 'K' as Key and 'K' as blacK. my professor always referred to it as 'key' so i guess it stuck :) I just ordered pocket pal off amazon. I know I dont know everything and love learning more. Thanks.
Mara,
For someone with all your experience I figured you would have heard the term 'key' before.. maybe you should do more reading in general :( this thread is a waste of both our times. i probably shouldnt have taken what you said so personally and im sorry for overreacting and being harsh. I know you're just trying to help. have a good weekend.
Brian
Brian, I disagree that this thread has been a waste of my time. You may speak for yourself, of course.
Concerning the term K in "CMYK" standing for "key," I have never anyone say "CMY-Key" before, and I've been in this business for well over 20 years. Well over 30, actually, if you count jobs that involved a smattering of what I've since made my life's work. Because this experience obviously dates way back to when printers actually spoke of plates and the term would have made sense, I should have heard it used with reference to CMYK, but I never have, for what that's worth. Funnily enough, one of the first pressmen I befriended when learning the business called his family print company "Key Printing" Even he never made that connection for me when explaining his company name (I tried to talk him into letting me design a more interesting logo for him than the clip art skeleton key he used, but he said that to him, the company name meant "We're the key to opening the door to success" or words to that effect. I believe it was even his tag line. But I digress.
In a related bit of trivia, I first learned of the use of K instead of B for Black as a function of the textile trade. Back in the late 1960s, when I was still performing for a living, I briefly had a day job as a display designer for an upscale women's clothing store. The manager of the couture department told me I could tell a black skirt from a very dark navy in the dark if I had to (and I often did) by checking the price tag for the color code: K for black, and I guess (don't recall exactly) N or B for Navy. That code system is probably still in use today, although they seem to use numbers now, too (1 for black, 2 for navy, and so on.)
I accept your apology, by the way. I do have to wonder, though, since it now appears you are exceptionally knowledgeable about the use of inks in printing, why you would have appealed to this forum for help with so basic an issue as creating desired shades of red and blue in what appears to me to be a very straightforward 4C job.
Oh well, what a bore life would be without its mysteries.
Mara
well mara,
I am not exceptionally knowledgeable about print. The reason i asked is because i am getting this printed overseas and was looking for some advice on how to get my colors setup so there are NO questions or mistakes. I wont have a chance to see the book until it is pretty much finished, or speak with someone about the printing. I have had issues with production overseas and didnt want to have the same problems again. I sometimes ask questions before i know everything (like if i was going to get it 4c process or spot colors) but peoples responses helps me sort things out and bring up questions i need to look into. I have used this forum before and have been a member of creativebits for a while now and try to help out where i can. It may seem like a simple 4C process ive had bad experiences with overseas printing and its worth it to me and the project to get the red spot matched.
Process Red?? WTF
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BRANDING | PRINT | WEB
www.jhousedesign.com
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"Did I really try to find an "undo" button on a vending machine?"
Jack
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BRANDING | PRINT | WEB
www.jhousedesign.com
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I thought he meant Pantone Red, presumably used as a spot color. It's been a confusing thread that way, hasn't it" ;-)
Mara
I thought he meant Pantone Red, presumably used as a spot color. It's been a confusing thread that way, hasn't it" ;-)
Mara
I never use "pure Black" or screens thereof in 4C jobs. Boring. There's a formula for Black builds, isn't there? Not more than so-and-so much a percentage of each color? I forget what that is.
Thanks, Greg. It's much nicer to be corrected by a gentleman. Brings out the lady in me ;-)
Mara
Well Mara, darling, well said. I couldn't help but chuckle at the dilemma herein and I will most certainly bare in mind your expertise. I have but a twinkle of experience compared to yourself.
Can you call me a gentleman now ? :)
P.S - Isn't it a no-no to use 100% K anyway? It produces a dull Black right? A rich black of a drop of Cyan and Black produces a better finish.
Love from Jack.
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BRANDING | PRINT | WEB
www.jhousedesign.com
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"Did I really try to find an "undo" button on a vending machine?"
Jack
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BRANDING | PRINT | WEB
www.jhousedesign.com
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whether or not you use 100% black or a rich black (usually 30/30/0/100 or so is what i've been taught) purely depends on what you want things to look like. rich black for text is dangerous, because any misregistration will show badly.
Sure. We had some stuff printed in China. Oh dear golly, never again.
Say I had a black square. Wanted it to look shiny and lovely, I would probably just add 30% to the mix. I think it depends on the printer too.
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BRANDING | PRINT | WEB
www.jhousedesign.com
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"Did I really try to find an "undo" button on a vending machine?"
Jack
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BRANDING | PRINT | WEB
www.jhousedesign.com
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"Gentleman Jack." I like it. Sounds like cheap scotch. ;-)
You're right about plain black -- but so is Greg, when it comes to text, or when you have to be certain that black elements in a design will overprint. There may be other times when you'd go with 100K but I can't think of them right now.
When it comes to figuring out what kind of black build you want, a lot has to do with the paper you're using, and how warm or cool you want the black to look against it, or if you're getting all anal about bringing in touches of nearby colors to create a sense of harmony. Anal Harmony. Great name for a post-punk revival band. But I digress.
Double hits of black and/or adding a varnish make a huge difference, too. My only experience with that has been on coated stock, but I imagine you could get a cool effect on raggy uncoated paper by using a varnish, kind of like foil stamping, but clear. Would you need a die for that, or just do the varnish as a spot color? I wonder if anybody here has tried that.
Mara
clear varnish would just be a separate plate. i've done that (long ago) to get a black on black look, which is really nice.
i've also cheated it with rich black and 100%k on a color copier, but it's much more subtle then and not nearly as effective.